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September 5, 2011
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So I have to start thinking about art history again, since it’s back-to-school season and I have to restart teaching. This is really just a way to excuse my laziness in coming out with new pages of my comic… Here’s another justification – starting to think about comics and traditional painting… When I finally do get down to work, I find that dA is a useful resource, since I don’t always have to refer back to the originals of my earlier pages; I can just look at them on dA. The cool thing is the way they’re presented first as thumbnails. Because of that, I get to see what they look like as a pure “design” composition – in other words, as a composition solely of shapes and tones. It helps me think about how the entire page looks, as opposed to the single panel. But this presents problems as well, since comic pages aren’t just something you’d do in 2D design class. The way they’re meaningful is totally different and, at times, approaches traditional post-Renaissance painting. But they’re not that, either. One of the things I’ve posted on previously is the way that narrative is intimately connected to how we lay our pages out. So the big question is what, exactly, does a knowledge of classical painting give to us? Anything?

The difficulty in answering the question has to do with how we expect our comics to be read – sure, we want individual panels to be looked at, but, with the exception of splash pages, they’re never not part of a larger composition. When I was in college (in the mid-90s), my friend, who was in a fine art program, was looking at my pages and asked me if I ever thought of the “whole page” as a composition. I couldn’t answer him, but not because I didn’t have a ground to stand on, rather because I didn’t know how to formulate what the “whole page” actually was. There are easy answers – it’s what you see when you’re looking at the physical object (which only lets you look at two pages at a time). And there are hard answers – since the writing continues (usually) beyond the page you’re seeing, the idea of the individual page isn’t the largest unit of meaning (in other words, it’s not something that’s understandable by itself, since you have to read the rest of the book). So how do you coordinate it? What actually organizes it for you in your mind when you’ve drawing? I have my own answers, which I’m about to give, but I hope to get other peoples’ ideas as well, since I want to expand what I’m doing.

Because I spent a lot of time studying Renaissance art (five years, until I got tired of trying to learn Latin, and switched my focus to modern art), I have an innate tendency to think about the unifying principle of the comic page as something like perspective. But not completely. In individual panels, I like to think about how meaningful the viewer’s position is, but then I realize that you don’t look at a comic like you look at a painting and I stop myself (the painting stands by itself, mounted on a wall, so it’s more like looking out a window – your whole body is involved; comics are held in your hand, and you flip through them relatively quickly because you want to get the story as much as anything else). So when I think about the whole page, I end up doing something that seems kind of Byzantine to me. I’ve noticed this in my more recent pages – it seems like the whole page has an axial symmetry, and a number of my characters are facing outward. I don’t know if it’s a good thing. Comic pages tend not to address the viewer, but when you do that, It tends to make the work seem less dynamic; that, in and of itself, isn’t necessarily a virtue, but you want to be able to do other stuff as well… (I don’t know if seeing thumbnails of my work on dA has encouraged this. But it has made it seem more noticeable). Back in the 90s, when I was first trying to be a comic illustrator, I got a rejection letter from Marvel that said my work lacked “oomph.” I didn’t think it was wrong, but I’m not sure if the editor had the right idea of what a more dynamic page would have been (remember, the mid-90s was the height of Rob Liefeld’s popularity, so it probably meant guys with huge muscles and even bigger guns jumping out of the page at you). There’s a dynamism to comics, for sure, but it has more to do with the way the panels flow into each other. So you have to find a happy medium between the Byzantine/design page and totally ignoring the fact that the panels add up to something. It’s partly why characters in comics panels have such trouble addressing audiences directly (it always feels to me like that stupid ending to Breathless, where Jean Seberg faces Jean-Paul Belmondo as if she’s talking to the audience  – and feel free to write me hate mail in response to my total dislike of Godard…). If you do that, you break up what links the pages together. But if you ignore the viewer, you end up ignoring the way the page looks as a whole… I don’t know what to think – help!
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:iconcropcircledesigner:
Late reply, but whatever, this is interesting stuff. Especially since I don't look at comics through your lense at all. I don't give much attention to how a panel looks on it's own and my mind's more at movies and music than painting when I think up comics.

Anyway as I read this I was wondering, what about the panels themselves? Varying shapes and sizes definitely makes a page more dynamic and effects what it looks like as a whole. Like my comic [link] which is mostly exercise in rhythm, just going by the outsides of the panels you could point out at what point things went fast, and that it had a definite final note. So I guess that gives some idea in how I think about it.

Why did I even write this I have to study philosophy (that's the answer right there)
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:iconmichaelcleaves:
Even later response (I've been M.I.A. for a few months due to my new occupation). I think it's both panels and layout, but it depends on what you're doing. Someone who emphasizes story more (Paul Pope is best at this, I think) will not worry so much about the whole layout in terms of a single visual image, but someone who thinks more in terms of other factors (allegories, etc.) will downplay what goes in panels.
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:iconjoeyv7:
I recently did a re - work of a page because of this very reason, and it made me wish I had more time to focus on the comic page as a whole, instead of just trying to keep up with churning out panels. I hadn't even thought of it until I noticed the panels flowed together more harmoniously than they usually do. It felt like more like a painting to me than separate panels on a page. I do love harmony in form, which may be why I'm relatively anxious in the comic medium, where the page is fractured into panels :hmm:
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:iconmichaelcleaves:
I'm kind of curious to get a sense of how people think about the page as a whole. I mean, we all must have some idea in mind, since you can't lay out your panels without some idea of what's going where - but how do you picture it? Are you saying you have a set image beforehand?
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:iconjoeyv7:
Sometimes. But then again, sometimes when the page is more complete, it suggests something totally different from what I had in mind. We start with storyboards, and since the work is split evenly between us for each page, it may be something as simple as unifying shadows throughout the page . . . or final tweaks to make our two different styles more harmonious with each other. The hard part is finally leaving the page alone, I keep wanting to treat it like a painting. But that's because I'm completely inexperienced in the comic medium :blushes:
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:iconmichaelcleaves:
I'm a bit curious about what you said regarding shadows, especially because it speaks to what I was getting at with the distinction I made between regarding the page as a design and regarding it as a set of individual paintings (I didn't phrase it this way, but it was what was in my mind). When you unify shadows, are you doing it based on the idea that the design element of the shadows (the placement of blacks and whites on the whole page) is unified (so that you get a balance of black and white, regardless of what you're drawing, across the page), or on the idea that the placement of figures in the panels have to be adjusted so that all shadows are facing the same direction (for example, that you've decided to compose the position we have of the figures based on the idea that the shadows will always be to the left of the page)? [PS - I hope my question makes sense...]
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:iconjoeyv7:
Heh, I just hope my answer makes sense . . . it's most likely an impulse to make the page as a whole more appealing to the viewer, than to adjust placement of the figures to more accurately depict light and shadow. Something to bring the eye to the main focus of the page. It can be for balance of lights and darks, or to direct the eye, or both :hmm:
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:iconmichaelcleaves:
Here's a good way to do that (by "good," I mean "allow yourself to be lazy"). In the first issue of my series, I wanted there to be this balance between total historical accuracy and imaginative reconstruction. This was a huge pain in the ass, because I always had to adjust the shadows of each panel to fit 1. the dramatic mood of the panel, 2. the composition of the whole page, and 3. the actual direction the shadows would be going, given where and in what direction the characters were traveling and at what time of day. The last one was a bitch. So here's the solution: for the next issue, I wrote a story for which historical accuracy would be irrelevant. Then I could do whatever the fuck I wanted!
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:iconjonathanwyke:
*JonathanWyke Sep 6, 2011   General Artist
I think it's an interesting topic, especially in the light of the Marvel story.

There is a danger that all comics are being created to show Marvel / DC style dynamism, and all new creators emerging see only that syle as the 'correct' influences.

I think we have to look at other art-forms for guidance. It would be insane if every mover were make in the same way as an action flick. It just wouldn't work. Similarly, you couldn't adapt say, Jane Eyre for television and film it in the same way you would NCIS. The pacing, look and feel of the book has to match and flow with the type of story you're trying to tell.

Comics are marvelous as they have an unlimited special-effect budget and can tell any type of story, but they've recently been ghetoised by the superhuman genre. Personally, I like very slow paced stories, and like messing about with perceptions and time within the story. By no means everyone's cup of tea (or anyone else's al all for that matter :) ), but the medium allows me to attempt to do that.
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